Show notesWatch us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVymPmvTBe8Krisztina Orosz was Main Organizer of #WTMVIE conference back in 2016. Listen to our podcast about how years of volunteering shape a person’s future;the positive bias of putting the word “women” in your community name;why being authentic is important also in startups, especially being an authentic leader and about the startup environment, how it is really like.If you want to know more about what Krisz’ job role at Anyline(https://anyline.com/) is, we reference another cool podcast where Krisz was invited on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVu4Sjq-6voAdditional resources mentioned during and after the podcast which Krisz wanted to you know about:Books: Invisible Women by Caroline Criado PerezPodcast: I Weigh with Kameela Jamil - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i-weigh-with-jameela-jamil/id1498855031 Happy Place with Flo Perry: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/flo-perry/id1353058891?i=1000467161491WTMVIE talk: How to break the brotopian cycle by Kaitlyn Chang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLpAfoZ3DSg&list=PLVr4my5fwE_XrRRqwW4LIYsPN2z5eaV2O Krisz’ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisztinaorosz/ Krisz’ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kriszly/Transcript TIMEA: Hey Ramón! RAMÓN: Hey Timea! TIMEA: Let’s talk gender equality. RAMÓN: I love the idea. Gimme a second I just gotta grab my coffee, I hope you’ve got yours, too! TIMEA: Yep, right here. TIMEA: Hello to all our podcasters. Hi Ramón! RAMÓN: Hey Timea and welcome Krisztina. KRISZ: Thank you Hi. TIMEA: Hi, do you have a nickname Krisztina. KRISZ: Not officially, no, but on social media Ido I do use a nickname but I’m not gonna say it. People have to find it out,it sounds funny if you say it out loud so I’m not gonna say it! TIMEA: But I am gonna call you Krisz though, right?’s KRISZ: Yeah that’s fine.I don’t really consider that a nickname it’s just a short version of my name. TIMEA: Okay thanks for being on our podcast,you are our first guest! KRISZ: Thank you I’mreally really honored to have that badge, thank you. RAMÓN: As are we. We are so excited that youagreed to to come and chat with us a little bit about what you’ve been doingand how your efforts towards gender diversity and equality have continuedforward. I’m super humbled! KRISZ: Thank you. TIMEA: So Kriszwe go back a long time but still we would like our podcasters to get to knowyou a little bit better, so let’s just start with listing three random thingsabout you. KRISZ: I am a very big plant mama,and I’ve always been a plant mama but I kind of really gave into this hobbyduring the quarantine so now in a small apartment I am the proud owner of over50 plants and this collection is probably not going to become any smaller.I only learned how to ride a bike this year so I’m very proud of myself! It wasFebruary it was raining and I just bought a bike and I went out and learned itand after I learned how to ride a bike I have not ridden a bike anymore becauseit was only the challenge, it was just doing it. TIMEA: Yeah but it wasalso the lockdown. KRISZ: Yes that’s true and a third random factis that I know a lot of random facts like I know where cichlids come from and Iknow which two lakes in africa have the most amount of cichlids and I know whatwater PH water should have for certain several fish types to livecomfortably, or you know spread them facts mostly about animals. Yeah biganimals fan. TIMEA: Feel free todrop some of them. KRISZ: Most of the ones I know are dirty animalfacts so probably not the best medium. RAMÓN: Ah, because I was about to ask what is yourfavorite one but I think we might not beable to air it in that case. KRISZ: No, no, I mean I can say it and you cancut it out but I don’t know if you wantthe work… TIMEA: No, no, let’s go back to our cupof coffee and tea. KRISZ: Yes TIMEA: And to ourgender equality topic. So, one of the main reasons why we’ve invited you todayis because you took the challenge in 2016 to organize one of the yearly WomenTechmakers Vienna conferences, so you were what we call a main organizer. KRISZ: Yes. TIMEA: And I’d like to focus a bit on the years that you did a lot ofvolunteering in different organizations where we also met, and then convergedto the topic of gender equality. Why did you get involved back then, and thengoing into what does it mean for you now with the role that you have? So, let’sjust talk freely, tell me about your volunteering years. KRISZ: So, funnily it started during highschool in coming from Romania we were encouraged to volunteer especially if wewanted to go abroad at some point and I started volunteering at Habitat forHumanity, they build houses for underprivileged people or people who can’tafford to get a loan via normal channels, so they still have to pay for theirhouse but they only pay for the materials. All of the construction work is doneby volunteers and I was one of those volunteers, I had a chance to meet a lot ofinternational people a lot of companies are doing team building events wherethey go and build houses. So it was a really, really cool experience and youreally felt that you’re doing something that matters, and in that period Irealized that very often the people who were applying for these houses werealso either single mothers or women who were fleeing from abusive situations orthey were the stay-at-home mom because they had to be the stay-at-homemom because the husband was the only one who could have a job or who couldafford to have a job and someone had to stay at home to take care of the kids.So it wasn’t, I was a bit too young to kind of understand that this has to dowith gender equality, but thinking back, you know, hindsight is always 20 20 sothinking back I kind of noticed this as well. And then I continued my volunteerpath also during my student years in an organization called board ofeuropean students of technology where we (Timea) also met, actually, and it’s also funnybecause it’s a technical student organization but I was studying economics, sonot really technical, but I was also doing construction work duringmy high school years, so you know, a lot of random stuff about me and I met a lotof different people during that my time in that organization, obviously women inSTEM and women in technology is a big topic, and I think oftentimes peopleforget that it starts at a very early age. So when you’re already a student orwhen you’re already working, as a woman in STEM or tech, it’s perhapssometimes a bit too late to kind of learn new things, or it’s verydifficult to get rid of all the societal input that you’ve gotten over the pasttwo years, even if it’s in your subconscious, because it’s a feeling and veryoften times it’s difficult to put into words, soobviously meeting a lot of women who were studying tech or studying I.T,computer science, machine learning, engineering or whatever. I started to get adifferent feeling about it. I never really considered myself a woman in techbecause I was studying economics and most people who study economics are women,even though most people who win nobel prizes for economics are guys. Veryinteresting. Anyway… TIMEA: It’s true. So but with the studentorganization with BEST you had more exposure to the technical domains. KRISZ: Exactly yeah and I started having more and morediscussions and putting myself in the shoes or finding myself in the shoes ofwomen in tech because I was suddenly being considered a woman in tech simplybecause I was volunteering in that organization right and growing up one ofthe, let’s say, unintended positive consequences of communism in Romania isthat people of my our generation who grew up, they were never reallydiscouraged from studying anything technical because during communism it was‘you just do the thing you do’ it doesn’t matter if you’re a woman or a man, soI never…. TIMEA: Was felt less of a bias, basically. KRISZ: Exactly, everyone was equal, everyone wasthe same, and I never really had that feeling that I’m different or that Ican’t do what I want because of my gender and funnily enough I startedrealizing this more, and more, in the western world after moving to Vienna andvolunteering more and more in these types of organizations and. TIMEA: Then you did the volunteering inbest you did in Vienna. KRISZ: I started in romania but most ofit was here. I started in Romania yeah but most of it was here in Vienna. So Iwas part of the board here at the technical university, and I did a lot moreevents and then the next step with your help was to go into Women Techmakersand being part of the organization team and then actually being the mainorganizer one year. But anyway, it’s obviously a team effort. You can’t organizean event like that by yourself, it’s insane. TIMEA: I think Ramón was already there by then, 2016. KRISZ: I think your sister Pilarwas there. RAMÓN: Pilar was an organizer. I might haveattended 2016 was that the one in Microsoft. KRISZ: Yeah. RAMÓN: Yeah, no, I sadly didn’t make it. KRISZ: Yeah, it was a good event.And yeah it reinforced my belief that okay there issomething wrong in this environment and we should talk about it and we shouldaddress it and obviously then I started working in technical startups wherethere the disparity continues so I try also to do within my company ortalking to other women in other companies, we’re trying to maybe build somethingup now where we can support each other and where we continue having thisconversation, so that as I said all of the things that you learn and you havestored in your subconscious can come out and be broken and that you can grow asa woman in tech. TIMEA: So from your story it seems like anatural flow that you went into women techmakers where you could maybe get abetter influence over the situation or understand it more and back then youwere already working with startups, right? KRISZ: Yes, so I started at astartup then I moved on to an incubator where I saw different kinds ofstartups and now I’m at a scale-up former startup depends on your definitioneveryone has their own definition of a startup. TIMEA: Okay, so you’re very much anchored in thestartup ecosystem and you know the issues for women in startups in a tech startup. KRISZ: Yes, very much. TIMEA: Okay,and you say that you’re looking to network people and women that are in thissituation. KRISZ: Yeah so there was this plan with afriend of mine laura from mindmeister which is also quite a successful startupyou should have her as well on, we are talking now to make ourown little, probably a meet-up at the beginning, to kind of assess a bit theenvironment of women in startups and see what they need and continue. I thinkthe big difference that we of how we want to do things is a lot of these eventsfocusing on supporting women in tech are women-only, and if you have aconversation about a problem but you only talk amongst yourselves it’s verydifficult to get the word out and oftentimes you need to have the the wordwomen in the name for example because you need to make it clear that you wantto target women but having the name or the word women discourages a lot of menfrom attending because you have the feeling that it’s only for women. TIMEA: You learned probably fromWomen Techmakers. KRISZ: Exactly, because we were trying a lot to get men as well to the event and yes weactually heard the feedback that “but I thought it’s a women-only event becauseit has women in the name”. TIMEA: Yeah that was kind of followed us for awhile. KRISZ: Exactlyyeah, so we’re trying now to we’re only in the brainstorm phase but we’retrying to start up something and see if it works and obviously we’re focusingfirst on Anyline and MindMeister because we know our teammates butthe next step is to then make an official announcement and invite anyone fromthe startup scene who wants to join. TIMEA: Yeah tell us when that happensbecause if it’s one thing we love to do at Women Techmakers is to showcaseother communities and gatherings and meetups and initiatives for that matter sothat’s really cool! Okay, so you still keep this flavor of volunteering and inyour life one way or another besides the plan? KRISZ: I mean I love my job and I love myplants but I mean I do need to socialize more with non-colleagues so I’m tryingto find new ways of doing that while maybe making an impact. RAMÓN: So I’m curious is there is there anykind of place where our viewers and listeners could keep an eye on, maybe onour show show notes where an announcement could come. KRISZ: I mean I will definitely let youknow when there’s something but as I said we’re only in brainstorming phase nownothing is official I think it’s gonna take a little bit of time. But yeah, no,definitely I will let you guys know and I’m hoping that our as our communitygrows then we can do something together as well I think yeah bringing indifferent points of view is is very very important. RAMÓN: Absolutely, and I think your ideaof exposure which is something that seems to sometimes be lacking is so key. SoI think it’s really interesting that you’re approaching it from this angle,this idea of communicating the need for gender diversity and equality. TIMEA: Thinking back on 2016 I really likethat you brought in the community for us back then the whole topic of startups.It was something we haven’t focused on before, the women in startups and sincethen I’ve been also flirting with startups myself and started to understandsome of the issues that are in that environment and the event back then wasfocused on putting female role models that founded successful companies inVienna, for example on stage and that was great because you had this community,this network that you could bring into the event and I really enjoyed it. Ifondly think about it and just recently I watched one of the videos, thekeynote from back then and I like that you’re still on the same topic andmixing them together at the same time. Can you tell us a little bit what someconcrete issues that you see from gender equality perspective in the startupworld and potentially what do you want to pinpoint with your new endeavor? KRISZ: So first of all I think a lot of theseinitiatives focus on female founders I think it’s absolutely great to supportfemale founders, but I’m not a founder. I’m a women in tech in a startup and Idon’t want to be a founder I’m not good at it and I know where my strengths areand so this would be one of the first, I wouldn’t call it an issue, but let’ssay in areas that we have identified is that there are a lot of women who arein tech and who are struggling sometimes but they are not founders and thereisn’t really a specific community or guidelines or a program that supportsthem. As well you have a lot of mentoring programs for founders but you don’thave mentoring programs for just women in tech it doesn’t matter if you’re afounder so that way. TIMEA: You mean women in tech instartups. KRISZ: Yeah exactly. Okay so yeah, we’retalking about the startups, yeah okay that would be the first one. Second one,this would be an issue I would say is startups of course came from the U.S in away or this concept and there’s this very big mentality of the frat boy wearinga hoodie who’s building their startup and I know that in Europe it’s not aspervasive but I have the feeling that a lot of times especially because manystartup founders are young (funnily enough successful startup founders are notas young as people would expect) but many first-time startup founders are youngguys and they grow up with this idea that you have to emulate this americanstyle founder, and unfortunately that also leads sometimes to attitudes or tobehaviors that first of all are not as common in Europe second of all they mayactually discourage a lot more women of joining a company or a startup thanmaybe in the U.S even because maybe women are just used to it in the U.S whichis a very sad fact if it’s true but disclaimer I’m not sure if this is true.So this would be the second one is trying to showcase that you can be authenticand you should be authentic in your leadership style and having a balancebetween a more aggressive masculine way of thinking and a more nurturingfeminine way of thinking is actually the best way to move forward because it’syin and yang, it’s the balance in the world and you can’t just bulldoze yourway through things, you know, you bulldoze a little bit and then you sweep upthe little branches that were not caught by the bulldozer so, (very badanalogy) but you know what I mean. So this this balance between a softerapproach and a more aggressive approach can actually cater to a lot more peopleand it can help a varied type of people grow, and I see that at Anyline, wehave people from so many different cultures from America to South Africa toBrazil, so you know, Romania, really, everywhere, and some of them don’t reactto an aggressive way but some do because that’s what they’re used to. So youneed to find this balance and this would be the second part. So let’s say abigger issue that I see that I would like to address trying to showcase thatpeople believe in authenticity and whether that authenticity is soft caringnurturing or aggressive to the point, bullish even, there is a difference andthat’s fine if you have different ways of expressing yourself there isn’t justone way of behaving for you to be successful TIMEA: Yes andbeing different and being authentic is fine. I think that’s a very importantmessage which I wanted to underline because what I’ve experienced in myenvironment so far is women in startup situations as founders or maybe asmembers taking on this bro culture, like trying to be one of the bros and thenit just comes out wrong right, like you see the authenticity is totally out ofthe window, first of all, and then you just see these mixed signals that youdon’t even know why they behave the way they do and then you start tounderstand that, oh, this is the pressure, the social pressure of being in thisculture that makes you portray some skills that you probably don’t even havejust to look tough just to be included. I don’t know what it completely is, butit was just awkward at the end of the day. KRISZ: Yeah, and this is something thatthat not only applies to women it applies to men as well. They’re- Not all menhave this way of behaving or have this way of leading there are many differentkinds of people in the world out there. It doesn’t matter what gender you haveand showcasing the fact that you can be yourself is very important. Once we dida leadership course last year and I asked the coach whether if this is the onlyway that I can become a leader, that I have to yell and shout and be superaggressive, then I don’t want to do this and he had so much experience and Iasked him honestly like “Do you believe that I can grow in my role the way I amor do I have to behave like someone else please tell me because then I don’twant to go down” that path and he said actually that for every first of all youneed to be authentic. All leaders in the world have this common trait is thatthey are authentic and second is for every one person that is visible andshouting out there there are a hundred quiet ones in the background who youdon’t know anything about who are doing perhaps a much better job, and I reallybelieve in that. TIMEA: Yeah I’m so happy that you brought inthe aspect that this is not just affecting women but all genders yeah also menequally, that don’t want to or don’t fit in the bro culture basically, and atthe same time I see how you worked on yourself to understand to overcome thisbro culture societal pressure in a way and discover that. I think it’s alsoabout what what is woman leadership or what is authentic leadership right, so Ithink we are still kind of in transition and the society is trying tounderstand that hopefully we’re going to see more amazing women leaders likethe prime minister in new zealand has always given us a good example, so Ithink you like her too. KRISZ: Yeah. TIMEA: Ramón what is yourtake on it, listening to two women talking about it? RAMÓN: Well something that’s beenbubbling in my head a lot as we’ve been having this conversation is you know,whenever I think of the the startup mentality the phrase “move fast and breakthings” comes up, right? And how actually toxic that phrase is because there’syou know breaking things, breakingm you know, I know it’s meant to be cute andlike, you know, breaking breaking industries, or whatever, but it’s alsobreaking people it’s breaking… And what I find interesting is when thesethese cultures are called out or not, maybe not called out but also givenfeedback, let’s say, how unreceptive they are and how slow to change these arebecause of hiding, it would seem, behind a veneer of something like, “businessas usual”, you know? “Business is slow, business is hard to change, but I’myoung and I wear a hoodie, so move fast and break things but don’t tell me howto change please.” I’m curious because my experience with startups is veryminimal just from reading, you know, social media and the news I’m curious,given that you’ve been at this for a while do you feel that there is some kindof reception to change coming a little more actively, lately? Or is that stillkind of slow to adapt to different needs, different cultures… TIMEA: Or is this the reason why you’recreating a new community? KRISZ: I can only talk about like, Austria,Europe, a little bit, and I do see that we have a different style of doingthings and it’s a combination, because of course, if most of the startups thatare successful have this way of thinking of move fast and break things then ofcourse people are going to think that’s the way to go, because they aresuccessful. But I see a lot more our venture capital firm RBC project, fromBerlin they have a much more holistic way of doing things, they’re much moresupportive of different ways, they encourage you, they want you to grow, butthey also care about the founders and the portfolio companies they have, and ifyou have such a company in the background supporting you, then you are alsomore confident that you can do things in a different way, which we are tryingto do. I see that there is a distancing in a way from the American style ofhaving a startup compared to the European style of having a startup. Yes, thatmay lead to perhaps less unicorns, but it also leads to a better quality oflife, to better happiness of the people too, even if you have successes ifyou’re, if you have, I don’t know, 1 billion euro exit or a 2 billion euro exitis that really any different? Like, is there really a difference between that?I mean it’s really, it’s difficult to say in a way it sounds a bit eutopic,like it’s, you know, money is not everything, of course money can make yourlife easier, but if there’s still a difference and if you want to have a clearconscience that you did the things the best way you could, and people are happyworking with you, and you’ve achieved something together as a team, then Ithink this is very different than the the type of culture we perhaps originallysaw with startups, and I feel that this is going in the right direction in atleast in Europe, at least in Austria. RAMÓN: That’s a great, answer thank you, sorry I interrupted you! KRISZ: No it’s okay, the wholegender topic of why I want to want to start this community is simply because Isee a gap for communities supporting women who are not founders but stillstruggle with diversity issues and that is my main motivation because I canstill continue women technicals but again I’m not really a tech maker, eventhough I align with a lot of the values of Women Techmakers, I can’t go to anystartup founder female mentorship programs because I’m not a startup founderbut I am in a leadership role I am a woman in tech and I have 20 colleagues whoare in my position and who want to grow and who struggle sometimes with dealingwith their senior male counterparts or simply with their senior counterpartsand if I can provide a little bit to help them grow then I’m super happy withthat. So that’s my main motivation of why I want to do something and I want toinvolve guys in the discussion I don’t want to start talking about women intech about you know only with women because that’s only half of the problem,like I want to fix the entire thing not just half of it. RAMÓN: It’s really inspiring, thank you so much. Well, thank you. TIMEA: Let’s ask chris one morepoint about: if you have any resources or advice that you want to drop in thepodcast for our listeners about the context that you’re coming from and I wantto mention one point we have in the past in our conference invited KaitlynChang and she did a talk “How to break the brotopian cycle”, so we wanna putthat in the show notes because she talks exactly about this brotopian broculture, in her Women Techmakers Vienna talk. KRISZ: Yeah so I completely agree with thattalkthe second one is just gather a lot ofknowledge that you canso for that I would recommend the bookInvisible Women by, I think it’sCaroline,maybe you have it. TIMEA: Yeah, because youborrowed it to me KRISZ: Yes exactly, it’s Caroline Criado Perezand it’s just, it’s enlightening. It’s not only about startups but just generalinformation about how the world is in a way built, and just read all the booksthat you can even if you don’t agree with them. For example I read “Lean In”by Sheryl Sandberg, I do not agree with it, it’s an interesting book but itdoesn’t fit me and if it doesn’t fit you either, that’s fine, but it’s still aninteresting viewpoint to have. Just get a lot of knowledge and then try andmake your own opinion about things, I think that’s the most important thing,don’t just don’t get swayed in a direction. Try and read the opposite of it,if it’s you know, it reminded me of one video from the School of Life and onevideo was ‘why you should have children’ and then one week later they uploadedanother video and the video is “why you shouldn’t have children” and that’skind of the exact thing like you have to look at one two sides of the same coinbecause only then can you form your own opinion about things, so I think that’svery important, regardless of what you read, always read the opposite TIMEA: Very good. RAMÓN: Awesome advice thank you. KRISZ: Yeah you’rewelcome. RAMÓN: It has been an absolute pleasure to haveyou Krisz. Before we let you go we’d love to ask: is there anywhere whereour listeners and viewers can follow you or follow your work that you wouldlike to give a shout out. KRISZ: I’m gonna sound super corporate now butLinkedIn is the the, my social media of choice. Instagram if you want to seemy plants. RAMÓN: There we go, I’ll link both of those inthe show notes. KRISZ: Pleasure talking to you guys, thank youso much for the invitationand super, super happy to be the firstone on your podcast.I’m very excited. RAMÓN: The pleasure is allours, thank you so much. TIMEA: Thank youit was very lovely, and thank you to all our podcast listeners. This was aflavor of one of our podcasts with having a guest over so we’re very happy, andstay tuned! RAMÓN: See you next time! KRISZ: Bye! TIMEA: Are you on the forefront of gender equality? You are invited on our podcast. RAMÓN: That’s right! Or maybe you know somebodythat we could have a chat with on gender equality? You should totally get intouch with us! We’re on twitter @GenderCoffee or any of the other contactmethods on our show notes. We would love to you to get in touch and for us tohave a chat.