Show notesWatch us on YouTube:https://youtu.be/Yv85qru7pFIFranziska Hauck is a coach, consultant and mediator. With her experience as a people lead, she coaches engineering managers, developers and primarily those working in tech. She has consulted startups, content hubs and bootcamp providers. Previously regional lead for the developer relations community programs at Google, she has also worked as a project manager and community manager. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franziskahauck/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/_francied Franziska’s favorite micro-animal - tardigrades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade Franziska’s website with resources: https://fh-digital.org/ Check her Youtube talk on the topic of developer insights in Germany 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyVgj5sSsG8 Franziska’s Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6UcpoAaXlHYjQh_ugXGbww/featured Shout out to: https://accessibility-club.org/TranscriptionTIMEA:Hey Ramón!RAMÓN:Hey Timea!TIMEA:Let’s talk, gender equality.RAMÓN:I love the idea. Gimme a second. I just got to grab my coffee. I hope you’ve got yours too.TIMEA:Yeah, right here.TIMEA:Welcome to another podcast on gender equality over coffee. And Ramon And meare delighted to have today. Franziska, on our show. Hi, Franziska.FRANZISKA:Hello.RAMÓN:Hey there. I’m so excited to have you here, Franziska. And if I may share through the world, we are recording today on your birthday. So let me on behalf of our listeners, wish you a very happy birthday.TIMEA:Happy birthday.RAMÓN:Yeah. I can’t believe that you took the time to record with us. This is suchan honor. And you know, we want to make this as fun for you as possible. Sofor our listeners, Franziska, why don’t you tell us a little about yourself?Maybe fun nickname. And do. Please follow it up with three random things aboutyourself.FRANZISKA:It’s actually intriguing to note that I am not a big fan of nicknames.So IDo get called Fran a lot of the times of Franzi theGerman sort of nickname. But I do go by Franziska, only.So usually that’my as you would call it, nickname. My full name basicallyAnd for three things that I would sayDefine me or that peopleMight not know about me I’m a huge fan of tardigrades I’m not sure if you know whattardigrades are.TIMEA:Me not.RAMÓN:They are… no I’m gonna make a Fool of myself. Please tell us.FRANZISKA:You are on the right track. They are these little tiny, microscopic beingsthat you can find everywhere on this planet. And they’re actually superheroes. So youcan freeze them, you can cook them, you can put them in space.They will survive. They will just come back to lifem And they have seemingly eternal life And they’re just amazing. And.They also look, really really cute.And that combination I find is also kind of a macro for diversity, right? Things that might seemingly look cute, actually have.Great strength in them. So a huge set of tardigrades.And two other facts about me, I once stood on a stage with the rapper Tiger. If that tells you something,RAMÓN:I’m afraid I’m terrible at musicians!TIMEA:He’s in Germany?FRANZISKA:No, no.He’s a US rapperonce was linked with one of the Kardashian, Jenners and I wasat his concert in Munich, and I was dancing and I’m doing my thing. And thenthey were like, Franziska come up on stage. And there were a couple of people.TIMEA:That’s the next level public speaking fear for me in front of a huge stagewith a wellknown rapper. That’s something.FRANZISKA:Yeah, but the fun fact was that all of the other people went towards him. And I was like, Yeah, I’m on stage.And I just enjoyed that kind of a little bit more than.No proximity. There are no videos as far as I know.But I’m a big big. Afrobeats and dance all and hip hop in and so forth. So itwas an honor to be called up them and to be able to do my thing. And the third fact that again not a lot Of people know about me.My grandparents had a sort of part time Farm and I grew Up there A lot of thetime and my time childhood spent a lot of time there. And I Actually harvestedpotatoes, helped with slaughtering animals Like all of those things. So I knowwhat it’s like countryside and Harvest All kinds Of things, also, Hey wasalways a big thing. And now that I live in the big city and work in Tech, it’slike two different forms Of life, I would say, but I still grounded Through this because I know where food Is coming From and what needs to be invested to have that. And Yeah, it was a nice childhood from that angle and I Don’T ever Want to harvest potatoes again. It’s very hard.RAMÓN:I already have a bad time peeling potatoes. I can’t imagine harvesting them.TIMEA:Actually, I liked actually that part of harvesting. I found it because I alsohave. I had the opportunity to be on the farm with my grandparents and allthat. And I found it already amazing because potato was my favorite vegetable.Now it’s avocado, but how they were growing there and their like undergroundcaves and the fact that you pull it out and it comes and then, I don’t know, Istill feel very happy that I experienced that part and I want harvestpotatoes. I still like to a better than the part with the animals. That part.I. I leave it for the speak farmers, I suppose.RAMÓN:I love what yousaid, Franziska, about having these different perspectives from childhood because I think you would perhaps agree with me that having these having these different experiences and backgrounds is what makes really good tech industries in diversity as well. This is a big topic of your work, isn’t it? Diversity and in different industries, particularly tech. I would love to hear what what’s your background there? How did you get started in promoting diversity in tech?FRANZISKA:I think for me, a large part is just frustration.BecauseI feel like I cross a lot of the boxes is sort of when we look towardsdiversity. I’m a woman For one thing, I identify a woman and the other is thatI live with chronic illnesses and that makes me have a couple of mannerisms,That are different. That say from the typical or standard that you wouldexpect. So I always kind of stood out with it and I was also vocal at the same time.It and always making sure that people understood me and knew where I was coming fromBut still it’s a lot of emotional Work at the same time. Then the other partis basically My mom And her discovering feminism In the 90s, which was a big,big Motor for me. Still to this Day is a big, big motor. And then again,growing up in a very sort of patriarchal family and structures and then justrealizing that there are As you said, Ramón There are So many different Thingsout there and it’s Great that we Are diverse. It’s great that we have theopportunity to have seen different things in life, which essentially all ofthe studies point wards makes better products make better services if youincorporate that But just generally sort of to have that diversity representedand Around you and enjoy that as well and to have that opportunity. So I feellike it’s this mixture of frustration, but also sort of liking to breakpatterns and challenging the status Quo. And At least in my case, not beingafraid Of being different. Embracing That in a way. And With that, making sure that I can Pave the Way for people that come After me be that because they’re women all be that because they live with chronic illnesses as well. So every Time I would Feel that I Have the opportunity To speak up and out, I would do so. And I continue to do so because I Have been in situations Where people have done that for me before. And I appreciate that because that gives me opportunities at the end of the day, there Are still a lot of things that go wrong.As you both well know, things where we have sort of very large percentages of people of one particular sort of what we perceive them to be And that makes Monolithic environments and to Break that up and To make sure that we have more diverse environments, you need to take those steps. So I think again, for me, it’s a mixture. But first of all, frustration is a very, very good motor to have because You only Basically tackle things that You care about That kind of make you frustrated. In a way, if you didn’t care, you wouldn’t Do anything. So Sometimes it can be good to use That frustration as a positive motor to tackle things.TIMEA:Then it would make perfect sense why you were drawn to job descriptions that have to do with program management. Because that’s how we both met you. Basically, you were a product manager at that time.FRANZISKA:I kind of transitioned into this because I was largely in community work. But in essence, in community work, you Have a lot of topics of diversity as well and Working at Google, it was sort of this transition From being in community management, going over to program management in the realm of community. So there Were a lot of Similarities and I had done a lot of project management beforehand as well. So It kind of seemed like this Natural pathway for me to have sort Of an Even More organizational Focus or more project management focus, I should say, but still Have That big label of community within that role andTIMEA:Just a quick point. So we both met Franziska while she was the program managerat Women Techmakers for Google’s side. For dACH, I believe it was for the whole region that was about two years ago about that about that time. And so what role are you now? Because you said it was a natural flow from maybe project management to program what now.FRANZISKA:Actually, I feel like I am in many ways of a career changer, but also a careeradapter in a way because there has always been this natural. Flow from A to Band there was always this link At this point I still do a lot of projectmanagement work because I’m Involved in a lot of change management initiativesBut What I do as a people lead, what I’m currently working a lead is basicallyI have my focus On people. So people leads are in Essence Disciplinarymanagers of technical teams. I have two Delivery teams that I take care Of andJust like an engineering Manager, they Are not coding on A day to day basis. Idon’t Do that as well, but I have an Even stronger focus on people. So inessence I’m The hiring Manager for the teams. I take care of the teams with astrong focus on coaching. So I have individual coaching but also teamcoachings. I make sure that people can thrive In the environment That they arein. I empower them. I teach to a certain degree about communication Methods.And I recently did a workshop on Positive communication, but I also try toempower my Team members to think About Concepts of diversity. For example,because with The allyship that They provide, they can change the environmentas well, And then on top of that, I do a Lot of, as I said, change management Initiatives A lot of work that goes into sort of making sure that the transition that we have from towards An organization That have autonomous teams where you have an environment where diversities embrace and so forth So I could quote a Couple more points. But in Essence, to a company That and to make sure that we have projects that enable our team members, but To go back to that point of Empowering people At the same time. I’m also doing a coaching certification, and I recently Finished my mediation certification and seeing how I can employ these skills in the environment of tech is Really rewarding for me because I see People Thriving. In Essence, when you’re A coach, you believe that the person Brings all of the necessary.Skills and what they need to go forward with them. They have that in them inherently. But youActivate That and help them find those resources and you give them the impulse. So it’s more of being enabler. RatherThan sortOf being in the role of ITeach you how toDo things and then you need to follow upon that it’s less of a sort of directive based leadership. And that’s what I really enjoy about the role. I’m notAlone in this. I have a couple of great colleagues around me who come from all over the world and have all kindsOf different experiences. And that as a group also makes us really, really diverse and gives us the tools to provide various perspectives to our team members as well.TIMEA:That’s so fascinating. I have already a lot of points I want to touch upon. For example, how many teams do you or can you coach consult have under your wing at the same time?FRANZISKA:That’s a good question, because I think resource is the most Important point.We have a dual leadership system, which means that of course I don’t take careOf my team members from a functional technical point of view. So I don’t do code reviews or I don’t have programs and we have functional leads for that as well. ButAt the same time, you also need to look towardsWhat kind of resources do you have so that you can enable every single team member in a good way? And currentlyI have two teamsAround about 15 16 peopleI used to have three teamsWhere we are growing. So IPass onA team to my new colleague. So that’s great to seeFor me, it’s not necessarilyIn how oftenDo I meet with people? But what doI do with the time that I have with them? So how much of a qualitative time can I help with them? So I doHave regular 1:1’sBut I also offer the opportunity to have separate coaching sessions with me and also obviously all ofThe otherAspects. As I said, finishing a mediation certification you do tend to also think about ways means how you can enable people and sort of a level that’sMore than 1:1. SoYou have group workshops and so forth. FeedbackCulture isA big big topic. IFeel that looking aroundIn the industry, we’re not really giving feedbackInA good way and making sure that they are just breakingIt downTo basic models and people can adapt and understand that already makes the culture so much better in the long run.But it does take a lot of work, Yes, and I take a lot of input and you also shouldn’t underestimateThe emotional load that comes with it and havingA good Center yourself as aPeople. It is very, very important. Also, knowing your own emotional landscapereally well helps to make sure that you can then provide that calmness in thatCenter for your team members.RAMÓN:I’m wondering, you’ve built up this vast experience in people coaching and1:1’s. And I’m eager to know as someone who actually just this week did theirfirst ever one on 1 tech career 1:1’s I’m trying it out for underrepresentedfolks in the Spanish speaking world. One thing I would love to know is, howlong did it take you to get to a level where you felt like this was somethingthat you could do naturally, something that was easy. Say, if I say if atheoretical me was wanting to start looking into giving better feedback andthat sort of thing.FRANZISKA:I always have to be very cautious because I fall into my coach mode really, really quicklyAnd I wouldPut all those questions to you and try to give you those impulses. But since we are in a podcast situationI try to hold myself backWhen I look back. I do feel that I’ve always had a communicativeknack and that helped me really well in communityWorkJust being able to break that say complicated messages down to the nittygritty. ButWhat I really liked was that again, sometimes simple modelsAre the best best thingThat you can have very early on in my career. I had a colleague who explained to us what nonviolent communicationWasAnd what I wouldn’t say at that point I practiced it really well. I’m trying to practiceIt more and more. ItDid give me sort of a lifelinein howCan I phraseMessages in a good way? And how can I understand people? And how can I enable them to also then in turn, communicate with me very well? WhatI also see in my 1:1sIs thatI focus my attentionCompletely on the other personIt’s not aboutMy ego, what IHave to say and so forth that that might be interesting for a podcast situationBut not in a 1:1. It’s not about me. I sawThe abilityTo listen andTo activelyListenPositive. Paraphrasing is a goodTool for that and also making sure that you ask questions on whether you understood something correctly helps a lot as well. AndThat, in essenceCombined with big drive and big desire to enable people I thinkAre a goodMixture, but goingOut there reading, trying to findGoodModelsAnd thingsThat work well for youBecauseIt should never be a dogma. It should alwaysBe the thing that you can adapt for yourself and to your style and to your personalityI think that worksReally well and that’s what I have seen in the industry also support a lot of engineering managers out there to get into the role that they’ve sort ofConscious. They have consciously takenThat step ofI want to acquire this knowledgeIn how can I communicate better? How can I coach? How can I mentorAnd how at the end of the day, it’s alsoNecessary mediate between peopleSo that additional skill set helps aLot andWidely reading. ExchangingWith people beingCoached as well helpsA lot. ThereAre various ways and meansTo arrive at the end destination and none is the most perfectOneIs just what is the most perfect one for yourself?RAMÓN:Thank you. That’s awesome.TIMEA:I have to think very much now. Okay, so how about diversity? How does this fit in your job? How do you manage to sensibilize people? And I think you’re a big fan on topics on accessibility. Also, lately, I’ve seen the post tell us a bit about this aspect in the job.FRANZISKA:That is a very good question, because in essence, what I’ve observed. And both in the community, but also in my role is that oftentimesWhat is the knowledgeThat we start off with? IFeel like after years of being active in the sea, I have myself a bubble on Twitter and I get all of the tweets and things that are happening. And that also makes me question myselfTo the point where, for example, stop saying things are weird or awkward because that is connected oftentimes to things like neurodiversity and so forth. So I doHave that informationComing towards me now with the system that I have builtA lot of people haven’t had thatAndSpecifically whenYou are in a scenario where you’re part of the majority, there’sOften the question, have you had thoseExperiencesTimea, You and I, we’ve probably both had our share ofExperiences as women in tech. And I couldProbablyWrite a book about that by this point. ButI’ve gone through itIn a way. So IHad that experience. So I in turn get that frustration. So IWant to do something about it oftenThat’S whenThere is not this level of I’ve had those experiences myselfAnd I also haven’tObserved itThen how familiar is it to me? So that’s the essence of just informingPeople about what are some of the things that are going on that they should be aware of? ButIt’S also about this level ofConsciousness in a way. OftentimesI found that talking to people, there is a lack of perceptionThat, forExample, discrimination happens toOther people and justCreating that level of empathy. That is, I feelKey in understanding how to be an ally and that’s the end goal, ultimately to be an eyeEven I as a person of a marginalizedGroup, can be an ally to other people in specific scenarios and empathyIs crucial in so manyAspects. ItDoes not only pertain to diversity. ItPertains to a lotOf other fields like good collaboration isIn essence, based on empathy, understanding where the other personIs comingFrom and that they are new to this and they are struggling and they need something to help them and to enable them. SoJust sowing the seeds I feel is very, veryImportantBut also a complete embracingOf peopleIf there is a person who comes to you and says, well, I don’t see it happening. And ICannot imagine that there is, for example, discrimination going onHow do you deal with that? You can create a line and basicallyBe strong inYour position. And then youWill argue at the end of the day. But ifYou embrace that personAnd you ask questionsAndYou get to knowThem that often creates an openingFor people to be like, Oh, okay. So thatIs your experience. It might not always click in the first conversationBut at least they get your your point of view and your perspective. And thenThey can over time empathize and same for me. I’ve had scenarios where I was confronted with something thatWas likeNot sure is that really the case. But then over time, I learnedMore about this aspect. And then I got more sensitized for it, if you willSo that is also very important. I feel like and just interest, generally. Hustling, hustling, hustling, making sure that you have the right markers forReducing biases in the pairing process. For exampleMaking sure that you do theExtra work and you go out there and you talkTo people thatYou feel like would be a great addition to your teamSpeaking, speaking up and out, I often specifically women that are younger than me often experience them toBe likeOh, I don’t want to go to theFront and talk about that. ButIn essence, you should raise your hand for up there for empowering others as well. It does take a lot of resourceAnd itLooks from at least from the outside. LikeIs itWorthwhile it’s? Worth it? It is. But it is definitely not an easy process. And you have to putIn the work. SoAgain, I feel like it’s a balance. It’s a mix of things that are, Let’s saybit more ephemeral in a way, andMaking sure that you understand people’s minds and where they are coming from. ButAlso what isThe hard work that you need to do? And that is, in essence, a lot of the things that we have seen in the literature in the debates on Twitter and so forth of what we all should do as people with a specific level of power and being those allies in these scenarios. AndAlly ship at the end of the day is if I could turn everyone into anAlly, I would. I would put out my magicwand in the it people would all be allies for each other. Can I do that? No. But I can at least tryTo spread a little bit of my magic.TIMEA:This is such a wonderful sentence to wish everybody to be an ally. I’ve heardlately a lot more about allyship. And I think at least in Austria it’ssomething that is not talked enough about. But I want to know for yourknowledge personally, where do you go to get this kind of resources,information now being about allyship or about a particular topic on gender equality or something in diversity? Yes. You listen to people and you learn a lot. I agree, but ally ship at the end of the day, still workshop or resource.FRANZISKA:I’ve mentioned it a couple of times. I think Twitter is a really good source. It’s just following it and then your timeline is automatically put together nicely. Same goes for LinkedIn, obviouslySoAll of theSocial platforms that you can leverage there, that’s really goodWhat I’ve also found is veryVeryUseful. False, my people eat colleaguesIn theSense that they are wide, red and theyCan recommend great books on the matterSo just asking your peer group, yourColleagues, people in your network, in your communityNetwork. In general, it does not only have toBe on social, we’reNow in a situation whereWe don’tMeet up in person and it’s we always have to do things on Zoom and we all get Zoom fatigue. But at the end of the day, networking is so crucial, not just as a toolTo get information, but toAlso buildUp those connections and to get those opportunitiesTo kind of createThose opportunities for yourselfBut Yeah, it’s listening a lot of the time it’s being open and at the end of the day, that’s what I always emphasizeIs thisSuper painful process of confrontingYour own biases. If you’reNot willing to do thatChancesAre not very high and I can personally tell I’ve had my moments where itHurt badly whereI had this realizationOfMyself. Oh, my goodness, is that what I’m actuallyThinkingBut we all have the patternsThat we were raised with. And sometimesYou need to challenge them. And that canBe a painful process. But onceYou do that and once you get outOf that process, you realize that you’ve gained so much moreAndInEssence not being afraidOf also hearing those experiences of other people and taking them on and making sure that that empathy level is there, I feel is crucial and then it’s again putting in the work and making sure that you’re up to date reading, taking the time and exchanging with people.TIMEA:Thank you so much for the insight. Like, I’m learning a lot.RAMÓN:I think I heard it from Kim Crayton in one of her talks. She said that she wants us to learn to embrace being uncomfortable. And that hit me like a ton of bricks because it’s just what it is. The work will make us uncomfortable, of course, relative to our level of privilege myself being a white man, I’ve got a lot more work to do and a lot more learning to do a lot more listening to do. And so this hearing this just means a lot to me. Thank you for putting it so well.FRANZISKA:Yeah, and you mentioning something that’s really important, I think over the last week or so I said that I cannot probably not imagineHow it is, for example, to be a woman of colorSo having already my experiences as a whiteWoman and thenHaving sort ofSeeing alsoAgainOn that time my time experiences or women of colorWhat I can do is I can empathizeAnd I canTry to understandTheir perspective. What I canNever doProbably is understandCompletelyHow that experience isBut I can put inThe work and makingSure that also others are aware of intersectionalitiesFor example as well. So weDo have variousPerspectives timeYou mentioned accessibility that is also something that I only discovered becauseOf talkingAboutLiving with chronic illnessesOn a stage while I was jobHunting, by theWayAndThen sort of finding that the accessibility community which beforehand was notReally I didn’t really consciously know that there was such a community out there and that there are these resources out thereAlso in that accessibilityCommunity. I feel like we go through a lot of the processes of discovering how painful it can be when you realizeThatYou have been building products, but you haven’t really thought about that particular group and to realizing that and making sure that you thenChangeYour ways and makeSureThat accessibility is something that you look towards whether it’s website orother products because it’s not only website. It’s a very important mechanismto do.RAMÓN:Excellent. I think as you said, always discovering new aspects of it and doing the work, it takes time too. Absolutely. I’m not sure you already mentioned could you give us a an estimate about how much time you’ve been doing this? And how much time you’ve dedicated to the work.FRANZISKA:ThatIs an important aspect that I always underline because while I do live with chronic onesAnd they impact uponNot necessarily my time, but uponMy energyQuite a lot which then impact upon my time because I have to spend timeJust doing nothingI also say, I don’t have any kids and that’s a big bigBig factor. IfI had kids, it might be different because I would be taking care of those kids and I still have sort of that luxury ofHavingThe ability to takeTime outBut in essence, what I would say is, as I mentioned, my mom discovered feminism inThe 90sSoThat’S whereIt started for me and then just as a child and then also my teenage asReading a lot about different culturesAround the world andDiscoveringTheir historyAnd a sort of what are the characteristics?I think that was a good baseline. And then I would say over the last 3-4-5 years consciously bit by bitBuilding up my knowledge base andSince Twitter and LinkedIn are sort of now well manipulated by me I wouldn’t say that I do this very consciously during the week, so it kind of comes to me. But then when I see that there is an interesting resource or somethingThat I should familiarizeMyself with, then I followUp on it and then I wouldEstimate if I had to breakIt down probably half an hour to an hour everyWeek, plus theAspects that come up in my work as well. So it’s a combination of that.RAMÓN:Awesome. Thank you. So a big focus of our podcast is to also get people who are perhaps interested in getting involved doing the work to get started. And I’m wondering if someone who has been at this for a while. Do you have any advice for people who are interested to get started? Besides what you’ve already touched upon.FRANZISKA:Network, network network network.CommunitiesAsThe one that you are leading and drivingIt’S so essentialAnd I meanThis inMore than one sense becauseAlso looking at forExample, young women that are interested in going into tech or being in working in techNetwork because this is essentially the communityThat will enable you to knowAbout jobs that mightNot be on the public boards and so forthBut it also what you will have by thatYou will meetPeople of variousBackgrounds and you willExchange withThem and you will learn from them. You will meet people who are very experienced in their career and have seen a lot of things. You will meet youngFolks who are SuperMotivated and driven and come in with this curiosity and you justGenerally expand your horizon famous travelingRight going out there seeing the worldAgain, you have to be able toAfford this. We shouldn’t underestimate thisAnd also with community work and being active in communities. You also needTo be able to afford it. SoCan you takeThat time out from taking care ofYour childrenAnd so forth? SoI see this as two sides of the coin. We need to make sure that folks can have that opportunityButIt’S also good to encourage folksTo take the opportunity that’s there and to go out and venture forth and so forth. SoAs you can see, I’m always delving into the sort of subtext and making sure that we understand various situations. But Yeah, that’s what I would recommendAnd justGenerally stay curiousWantingTo learnBeing open to learn andListeningBelieving stories also and making sure that thereIs a personal understandingOf what youWant to be as an ally, how you can support. And then as I said, getting out that magic oneAnd spreading your margin.RAMÓN:That is wonderfully put, I appreciate it so much.TIMEA:And at the same time as a resource, I want to point to your website as well.https://fh-digital.org you write there interesting articles, blog posts and I think you’re available as a Speaker on the topics. I mean, that’s how I follow you online and you have your own content on YouTube as well. So we’re going to make sure to put this in the show notes if people want to talk to you on these topics.FRANZISKA:Yeah, absolutely. And for me. AsA reallyGood journey to this pointWas, as I mentioned, discoveringAccessibility and alsoTalking about things that at this point I felt nobody had really talked about which was accessibility for developersSort of in the larger scheme of things. And soFar we had always seenA very strong focus on how to support developers who are blind or developer who are hard of hearing and so forth the tab. So that overall picture of also from the employer view of what you can do to ensure accessibility for your employees. So IDo think there are a couple ofTalks online of mentioning that and going into detail there and alsoObviouslyMy research on stats for tech folks in Germany and also diversity there soHappy to supportAnd to exchange on those topics any time. If somebody is interested.RAMÓN:I saw that talk the one on the statistics that was incredible. I would love to add that to the show notes.TIMEA:Absolutely. You talk about a good perspective on the German market on how it is with development developer numbers.FRANZISKA:And.If my resources allow me to do so, I will do a second iteration. I’m just waiting for a couple more steps to come in, particularly the main source of information.That I used, which was.From the federal agency.Of employment in Germany about the numbers of it. Folks. They basically did this very, very indepth study and I’m.Just dying to get the new numbers so that I can do. I can see how Corona impact the industry story because the signals that does, but it somehow also doesn’t because it’s kind of resilient and so forth. So this is really sitting and what I have been doing is I have been trying together other sources in the meantime that.Can then sort of be implemented there as well. And I really.Hope that I can do.That second video soon to make sure that we have a better understanding of the Corona of how the tech industry is currently what they all currently is there.TIMEA:I’m gonna keep an eye on that.RAMÓN:Yeah, you know what Timea and I actually briefly touched upon doing how the pandemic has impacted employment and the gender discrimination that comes with it. So definitely something to keep an eye outFRANZISKA:The central question that I haven’t yet been able toAnswer is weHave seen how womenLeave the workforce in droves because of Corona and how that impacted whereWe haven’t had gotten a good understandingIs, do women leave stem jobs and in particular tech jobsBecause of that as well in? Or does it not affect anythingWeDon’T have any answers onThis at this point. Right?We do know that women proportionately leave tech jobsMore than men do andQuicker. But we haven’t seen how Corona interplays with that. And for meIt’S just not on the one hand, it’s a spreading topic. But if we were to seethat itWould impact, thereWould also be a tragic topic andIt would lead me to think, what can we do to make sure that does not impact any more negatively than it already does?TIMEA:Yes, it’s hard enough as it is. So last question. If you could go back and start over, Let’s say on your career path, would you change anything?FRANZISKA:I have thought about this with the experiences that I had. Not just becauseyou asked. Probably not much because I’m also big and from believer in you need toMake your mistakes to learn fromThem. And again, when we look at sort of the gender disparity there, there’s often the expectationThat women need to be more perfectThan theyNeed toProve themselves more. I say no, go forth and make mistakes. It’sImportantBut againCan theyAfford making mistakes? That’s a good question. But what I would probablyChange is startingOut myCareer. ForMe. I think salary was not a bigTopicAt that point. I do come from a working class background. So it was more likeAt some pointI need to earn enough so that I can make a living. But I wasn’t very strong, very adamantAbout it at the beginning of my career. AndI think that I would changeI would beMore verbal about what kindOf salary I would wantAnd also be more conscious about the fact they are living with chronicIllnesses and me not having status in Germany, which is another thing entirely and very complicatedI need to make sure that I have a living that enables meTo live aLife. ThatWhereI can just spontaneouslyBy medication. If there was a medication for me, for example, butIt’S. It’s so imperative that just this week I saw this big study of women noso much about salary. And it’s more about the acknowledgment that they getIn the job. And I’mLike, Yeah, that’s true in a way. But why shouldn’t we lookMore toward salary, why shouldn’t we be strong or. NoI’m not goingTo get less pay than the colleague. AndOftentimes this happensSort of in a very coveredWay because peopleDon’T talk about itSo talk to your colleagues. Make sure that you are up to date with what everyone is earning a decent Germany. And thenThe laws, according to GermanyYou areAllowed to talk about your salary even though contractsSay differently. So also having that knowledge aboutWhat is what you are contractor able to do and whatnotSo having that knowledge that I have now I would go in with a completelyDifferent mindset and I would beMuch more of an advocate for myselfThenI have been inThat situation and I can give the advice to all of the young folks out there starting now. BeVeryStrong on what you can get. Try to do theResearch. But then we also very vocalAbout what you should get in that scenario from employers andGetting your fair share. That’s whatIt’S all about for the hard work that you put in.RAMÓN:Amazing. Thank you so much. Wonderfully put. Well, I could stay in chat forever, but that we want to be respectful of your time before we wrap up. Is there any place where folks can get in touch with you that you would like to tell them about? And is there any organization or resource out there that you’d like to give a shout out to before we go?FRANZISKA:Good question as the places currently we’re all online anyway, but I mostly tobe found at Twitter, LinkedIn, so this is where I usually regularly post and alsoExchange with folksA lotBasically sort of broadcast my wisdom to the world. But as for organizations, there are organizations, communities, there are so many. I don’t feel like I would do one Justice if I mentioned just one. But what I’m a big fan of is obviously initiativesLike the onesYou are leading. So be that women Techmakers be that women who code be that. Oh, my goodness. I’m probably forgetting all of the important ones, but also initiativesThatLike the accessibility club, for example, that I’m partOf as a co organiser in Berlin for the accessibility groupThen there are some what I haven’t yet seen is sort of a group for folks in tech who live with disabilities, chronic illnesses andNeurodiversity. ThatMight be interesting. So I do see there’sA gap whereWe could link up a little bit more, but generally anything that helpsWomen and people in marginalized groups thriveIn techI’m a big fan of that and I support that andI’ve probably spoken at aCouple of them, so alwaysA reasonTo be there.TIMEA:Okay, then we’ll have to. We’ll have to share those to them. Or rather justtake it as an opportunity as a shout out to everybody who feels attached bythat because we want to invite you on our podcast. We have a series on genderequality role models such as Franziska today at the show. But we also showcasegender equality, organization, role models and on all aspects. Not justnecessarily gender quality could also be in other aspects of diversity. Youare more than welcome to reach out.RAMÓN:Well, this has been an absolute delight.Franziska Timea. Thank you both so much and to our listeners. Thank you somuch for tuning in. Get in touch. Let’s chat. Take care, everybody.TIMEA:Goodbye and thanks Franziska. Goodbye.TIMEA:Are you on the forefront of gender equality? You are invited on our podcast.RAMÓN:That’s right. Or maybe you know somebody that we could have a chat with on gender quality. You should totally get in touch with us. We’re on Twitter @GenderCoffee. Or any of the other contact methods on our show notes, we would love you to get in touch and for us to have a chat.