In this episode we sit down with Kyle Elmore of the youtube channel @popmilk for a two hour talk about herping (lurking for reptiles and amphibians), creating habitat, passionately obsessing over milksnakes, why Indigo Snakes are so chill, self-education, embracing the living world as a side-hobby, coping with habitat loss, naming milk snakes,, the glory of tin, getting bit by copperheads, being attacked by africanized bees, teaching organic chemistry, and more. Check out Kyle's stuff at @popmilk_herping (instagram) and @popmilk (youtube). Reminder that if the ads bum you out (and they should, because they're mostly for garbage and adjusted to targeted demographics), for a measly five bucks a month you'll have access to all the Crime Pays podcast episodes on the Crime Pays Patreon at www.patreon.com/crimepaysbutbotanydoesnt